About the gender binary

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#2
The futility of trying to make sex binary
Transphobes often promote a binary view of sex/gender where you are stuck with the the sex you are born as, this of course doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny. They cannot get their story straight on how people should be divided into 2 biological sexes, when you refute one thing they move on to the next.

For biological sex to be completely binary 100% of the human population must fit into two clear categories, otherwise the notion of a gender binary is a mere simplification for convenience.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-science-of-biological-sex/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSgFla-gaHo

Chromosomes
There isn't any clear way to divide humans into 2 sexes based on chromosomes, there are just too many intersex conditions making this proposed classification biologically false.

https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(02)03242-9/fulltext

Gamete production
An individual human need to produce one of the following to reproduce

0: eggs
1: sperm

But there is a lot of people who cannot produce either so we cannot use this to get a clear binary division between the sexes.

Gonads
This of course isn't binary either, a lot of messy intersex conditions and it's unclear where the line should be drawn.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/true-hermaphroditism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis

Then there is all the people who do not have gonads at all usually due to surgery.
 

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#3
Bootsinmyshoes30 wrote:

I would like to change my mind, and the way to do that was to ask you to show where my beliefs are wrong, to debunk my beliefs. For years I believed sex is determined by all sex characteristics including secondary sex characteristics such as facial hair, breasts, etc and that sex is bimodal, a spectrum. These tweets posted by a scientist explain why they and other scientists believe sex is a bimodal distribution; https://twitter.com/ScienceVet2/status/1035246030500061184

And this article explains why sex is bimodal; https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2018/10/28/sex-in-humans-may-not-be-binary-but-its-surely-bimodal/
In order to change my mind, I need answers to the following questions.

Question number 1 , this is more so a question about other species, not humans, and why I'm asking GC is because whenever I ask about other species on science subreddits, I get answers from TRAs. So if any GC here is knowledgeable on the topic of biology and whether or not sex is binary in other sexually reproducing species I would appreciate if you answered this question, why is sex a binary and not bimodal in all sexually reproducing species?

In other sexually reproducing species, hermaphrodites that produce both sperm and egg show that the experience of sex is not binary, the options for an individual organisms sex are not limited to 'male' or 'female', and can be something else such as a hermaphrodite that is not male or female, and produces both egg and sperm. A binary system does not mean "two"; or "both" it means a system in which there are two options, an either/or situation.

Hermaphrodites introduce a scenario where the options are "either/or" and "both/neither", that means by definition sex is no longer a binary system in other species because there is a third option of expressing sex through producing both sperm and egg ... Why don't hermaphrodites show that in other sexually reproducing species sex is not a binary?

Question number 2
Why isn't someone less of a male or less of a female if they can not produce sperm or egg, have removed all genitalia in surgery, have big or small breasts, have less or more body and facial hair, etc?

When we say sex is bimodal and a spectrum, we mean a female that can not produce eggs, has removed all female genitalia in surgery, has small breasts, has more body and facial hair etc. is less of a female than a female that can produce eggs, has all female genitalia, has big breasts, has less body and facial hair etc.

Same goes for males, we mean a male that can not produce sperm, has removed all male genitalia in surgery, has big breasts, has less body and facial hair etc. is less of a male than a male that can produce sperm, has all male genitalia, has small breasts, has more body and facial hair etc.
When we say sex is bimodal, we mean there is a male side and there is a female side in the bimodal distribution, we mean that one becomes a trans female if they have changed their secondary and/or primary sex characteristics via hormones and/or surgery to be on the female side of the bimodal distribution, and that one becomes a trans male if they have changed their secondary and/or primary sex characteristics via hormones and/or surgery to be on the male side of the bimodal distribution
Why are those statements false? Why is sex not a bimodal distribution? Are there any biologists here or in other places that have explained why sex is not bimodal and is a binary across all sexually reproducing species?

Question number 3
Saying that sperm = man and egg = woman is a pretty wobbly position. If we were to make a similar argument about other classifications, it would be: Backbone (the feature) = mammal (the category). Except that isn't true. Any number of vertebrates could have backbones, and so the presence of a backbone does not indicate one is a mammal.
Now we can flip this to category/feature and say woman = egg or man = sperm. Except that also isn't true. Post-menopausal women do not produce eggs.

In one scenario, imagine a woman or man removes all genitalia in surgery, they have no genitalia left anymore, they can not produce sperm or egg, how come they are not less of their sex for losing those abilities and are not of a different sex category after the removal of all genitalia?
So then it seems "those that produce eggs are women" or "those that produce sperm are men" is incorrect, as one does not need to have/produce eggs to be a woman or have/produce sperm to be a man.
Why am I wrong in that? Can you explain to me where I'm wrong in my beliefs
 

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#4
Having to pee with people of your same sex is disgusting
Why are people still fighting over same-sex spaces, you are not actually fighting over much of value.

I can see why some women are uncomfortable with gross hons in their spaces but in terms of security laws allowing people in based on gender identity has worked surprisingly well

https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

It's way better to have single person toilets.

Single person shower rooms is an option.

Getting a random erection when you are naked with other males is no fun, this is why i have not been naked with other males since puberty.

the same-sex washrooms and shit exist because of hetronormativity, like it reinforces the view that same sex peeps wont "normally" sexualize each other therefore its okay for them to see each other naked, but surprisingly gays exist and they arent even that rare enough to neglect.

One-person washrooms or any-gender washrooms should be the ideal alternative.

A more radical solution is to give up on privacy altogether and have everyone see you naked. There are already plenty of nudist beaches.

 

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#5
Is gender identity politics bad for trans people?
Gender identity politics is focused on identity (that there isn't any objective test for) rather than the biological characteristics of your body.
Gender identity politics is often used against trans individuals, it is claimed that males will pretend to be transgender to get access to female spaces, this is of course extremely rare but it's still an effective scare tactic.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/opinion-transgender-bathroom-crime_n_5b96c5b0e4b0511db3e52825

https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

I do not think you should try to get accept to female spaces like shower rooms if you still pass as a male. It's actually very common for trans individuals to start of buymoding and delay social transition until they pass better as female.

One potential issue with downplaying the importance of biological characteristics such as ability to breastfeed is that then it will be more difficult to push for early medical transition, then society can easier get away with not allowing teens to transition "you can just identify as female, you do not need to transition".

It is a fact that the later you start your transition the more you will end up being different from the average cis female, hip bones fuse at age 25

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_bone

Hopefully in the future you will be able to get working ovaries and womb as a trans female so you will be able to get pregnant and give birth just like
most cis females, development in that area would also help a lot of currently infertile cis females.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/06/live-birth-dead-donor-definition-motherhood-transplants-pregnancy

Of course having strict requirements for womanhood would also exclude a lot of cis females, this is not a hypothetical problem, both men and woman (cis) are subjected to gender norms where deviating from that will cause social problems.

Implications for intersex people

Intersex people are also affected by these things, often they are surgically mutilated to fit into either gender category and sometimes it turns out the gender that were assigned to them didn't fit them particularly well. Them then being able to just identify as the sex they want to be will not solve the issue of them having been mutilated.

Detrans individuals
Another group affected by this are the ones that end up detransitioning. They may identity as they sex they were born as even though biologically tney are not there and they will never truly be there again, often gender transitions partly irreversible. While pointing this out may seem cruel it's important to recognize biological reality

i do not think it's appropriate to let these people just change bathrooms because they change their gender identity. detrans females are biologically different from cis females who never started transitioning (as groups).

Requirering HRT to get access to female spaces cannot really be abused, then it's actually a good thing if predators start HRT to get access to female spaces since then they will be chemically castrated, unfortunately very few will be willing to do that so it's not much of a benefit.

There is also the truscum camp that think you are valid if you have "gender dysphoria" (unclear what exactly counts as that) but anyone can say they have dysphoria so it's not really safer from 'abuse'.

Jijifav wrote:

it is bad. the gender abolitionist, gender identity crowd are lesbians and radfems who are attempting to claw back from trans women the title of “most oppressed body.” they also reject being women out of internalized misogyny and to distance themselves from trans women. if gender is just an identity, than trans women are just males who identify as women, and everything reverts back to genitalia at birth. it’s genius, really
 

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#6
Self-ID as a tool for gender egalitarianism
Self-ID can actually ve useful for circumventing discrimination based on legal sex.

If your state doesn't recognize same-sex marriage self-ID would allow you to go around that.

If there are gender quotas people disingenuously self-identifying as the other sex can allow the most qualified people to get positions instead of picking someone less qualified based on their sex.

In general self-id can be weaponized to push for gender egalitarianism by making legal sex near meaningless, abolishing discrimination based on legal sex isn't always politically viable. Personally i do not believe in egalitarianism and therefore i am sceptical of self-id.
 

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#7

The doctor pointed out that a binary classification system is one which only have 2 possibilities, if there is a third possibility it's not binary even if said their possibility is never actually observed.
 

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#8

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#9
Woman = Adult Human Female
There are many ways to arbitrarily divide humans into 2 sexes but what actually make sense is to look at the body itself.

https://vintologi.com/threads/about-the-gender-binary.846/

When trans people medically transition with HRT the transition itself will be biological, all the hormones does is signaling to the body what to do, you already have the genes needed to grow fully functioning breasts capable of breastfeeding.

https://www.them.us/story/trans-women-breastfeed

HRT will negatively affect athletic performance making it harder for you to build or even maintain your male strength 167 the longer you stay on HRT the weaker you become 168

HRT will feminize the brain https://www.researchgate.net/publication/46671034_Changing_your_sex_changes_your_brain_Influences_of_testosterone_and_estrogen_on_adult_human_brain_structure

I do not see much value in including male crossdressers in the "woman" category, being a women shouldn't be about conforming to gender stereotypes, it should be about the biological characteristics of your body.

There is already a term for people presenting as female without medical transition "drag queen".

If we promote the notion that you can be a women without transitioning then that can be easily used against trans people to deny them healthcare "they can just identity as female, no need to actually transition". This is why it's important that we recognize biological reality.

Medical decision has consequences and these consequences can be permanent, we shouldn't downplay these consequences such as pretending someone who wants to transition to female but got denies HRT is just as much as a woman as someone who actually got access to evidence based healthcare.

Some people of course want to define biological sex as something you cannot change but there are already specific terms for that you can use and this will also avoid any confusion

Chromosomal sex: Male, Female, intersex

Reproductive sex: Male, Female, infertile, hermaphrodite

Genitals: Male, Female, NB, intersex

Birth sex: Male, Female, intersex

Genetic sex: male, female, intersex

Of these both Reproductive sex and genitals can change. None of these are binary. Intersex people are not all "defective males" xor "defective females". Plenty of intersex conditions are just fine and does not require any medical interventions, we really need to be better at defending intersex rights.
 

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#10
Debunking "professor dave explains".
He did make a video on trans people 5 days ago and i just watched that garbage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpGqFUStcxc

The fact that a cuckservative made a response video is by itself a bad sign, if he had made a good video he probably wouldn't get a response from a transphobe.
99%+ of people are cisgender with cis being the opposite of trans
This is simply not true. For most people their sex/gender is not some important part of their identity. Trans people generally care a lot more about gender than non-trans people.
Gender identity is biological and cannot be changed
While gender identity is partly determined at your birth it can also be changed by the environment
https://vintologi.com/threads/science-regarding-transexualism.566/page-2#post-6060
My guess is that he simply didn't bother doing his research before making his video. Instead he just went blindly with the mainstream narrative while pushing for gender critical garbage.
Gender roles became obsolete with the agricultural revolution and has persisted because males wanted females as property.
No gender/sex roles has persisted because males and females are different. Males are much more suited for dying in wars while females are suited for making babies and breastfeeding, this has never changed.
Sex is defined by chromosomes except for intersex people
If biological sex was defined by that it wouldn't be an exception. It would apply universally. There is still no generally accepted precise scientific definition for what counts as "biologically female".
The most accurate model is sex as a bimodal distribution, this will include everyone (intersex and trans people).
No surgery changes your chromosomes
Everyone already know that and he himself seem to agree that we shouldn't define sex by chromosomes in the first place, why then mention this?
Transition does however change sex-characteristics which is much more relevant for social interactions than what chromosomes someone has.
We should focus on politicians, not what some comedians are saying
Politicians focus on getting re-elected and this will very much depend on the views of potential voters. For that reason it very much matter which views that are pushed on people.
If you pay for a steaming service you probably do not want that money to go to people who push harmful political views. Vote with your wallet.

False dichotomy
He basically gave the viewers to options for what counts as woman, man

A: let's look at chromosomes/whatever.
B: let's focus on gender identity (define woman by gender identity to be nice to trans people)
He completely ignored the third option
C: let's look at sex-characteristics

This might be due to him being gender critical and therefore opposing any sensible criteria, he made it clear that he is opposed to gender-roles so it makes sense for him to also oppose the basis of this roles (males and females are different).
HRT changes all aspects of your body including your brain, it's not just a matter of cosmetic transition.
 

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#11
Debunking: you are a woman if you identity as such
Merely defining womanhood as something you identity as is obviously circular and doesn't make sense.

You are X if you identify as X
You are X if you identify as (the concept where you are X if you identify as X)
You are X if you identify as (the concept where you are (the concept where you are X if you identify as X) if you identify as (the concept where you are X if you identify as X))

As we see, this doesn't work.

Sex as a bimodal distribution
The most accurate model that includes all of humanity is to look at overall sex-characteristics, then for most cases it will be fairly obvious who belong in the male category and who belongs in the female category

bimodal.png

The issue here is going from an accurate bimodal system to a binary categorization. You will always end up with cases where which of these categories they belong to.

The solution is to give up the idea of having some universal binary classification and instead have different rules depending on the situation. For example the rules for sports does not have to be the same as the rules for legal sex.

Social sex vs biological sex
For social interactions what matters is your presentation and this can obviously be changed. At least social transition is very much possible with regard to typical social interactions.

Whether or not transition changes your sex to actually go from biological male to biological female will depend on the exact definition, when you start and which medical treatments you get. This however is not very relevant for social interactions.

Things like womb transplants for trans females would be great in any case.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/06/live-birth-dead-donor-definition-motherhood-transplants-pregnancy

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2933979/I-born-no-womb-ve-given-birth-twins-says-mother-feared-no-man-want-me.html

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/05/11/trans-uterus-transplant-pregnancy/

Ovaries for trans females allowing for pregnancy and eliminating the need to take HRT would also be a good thing.
If you look at various definitions employed by e.g. the APA, gender identity always has an important physical component, just not in the traditional sense that one's sex strictly determines one's gender identity.
There is however no current way to empirically find out whether or not someone is male or female from this. Nor is it something determined by birth as demonstrated by multiple intersex studies.

I do not think we should regard trans females as having been female prior to transitioning, they did not have female bodies, nor do trans females have female brains on average prior to HRT after male puberty.

https://sci-hub.se/http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhr032

https://vintologi.com/threads/science-regarding-transexualism.566/#post-5334

It also implies that some people are "really trans" while others are not which is harmful and not helpful in any way.
The problem is that often trans people have to wait years to even begin the process of getting medical transition. And even then, transition requires being judged trans enough by a bunch of cis people.
The solution to that is NOT "let's pretend they are female even though they have not been able to start transitioning"

In order to solve an issue we have to recognize it. Recognizing that MtF individuals are not female prior to transitioning is an important part in fixing that issue (by giving them the healthcare they need to improve their lives).
 

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#12
Humans are not gametes
TERFs like claiming "there are only 2 gametes" as if that would make sex binary.

Humans can produce sperm or eggs at sex cells with it being rare for humans to be able to produce both at the same time. This however does not make sex binary since there are a lot of people incapable of producing either gamete. The theoretical possibility of producing both maens that there are at least 4 reproductive sex categories.

True hermaphroditism case

Often when you transition medically you lose your ability to reproduce (which is bad) making you similar to an infertile cis female if you were born male.
 

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#13
HRT changes your sex
Biological/physical sex is best described as a bimodal distribution where most people are obviously male xor obviously female.

Masculine traits are traits associated with making females pregnant and defending your offspring.

Feminine traits are traits associated with being/getting pregnant, giving birth and breastfeeding. Note that you can have these traits without actually being able to get pregnant as a female.

https://vintologi.com/threads/about-the-gender-binary.846/

Most of these sex-characteristics can indeed be changed which can be very much beneficial.

https://vintologi.com/threads/science-regarding-transexualism.566/#post-3632

HRT changes the brain
Transitioning will change the proportions of your brain and mental abilities towards the sex you are transitioning to. MtF transition will improve linguistic intelligence and diminish spatial intelligence.

researchgate.net/publication/46671034_Changing_your_sex_changes_your_brain_Influences_of_testosterone_and_estrogen_on_adult_human_brain_structure
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X14001846
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01651781050027142
https://sci-hub.se/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01651781050027142

HRT changes bones
MTF HRT will change the bone-mineral density towards the female norm for people who transition from male to female.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29630732/

When started early HRT will also affect how bones develop (hip bones fuse at 25 or earlier).

Breastfeeding
There are multiple cases of trans females able to breastfeed, main issue is that you need to artificially trigger lactation since there wasn't any proceeding pregnancy.

https://www.them.us/story/trans-women-breastfeed

Sperm production
One negative effect of HRT is that people on it will temporarely lose their ability to make sperm, i recommend banking sperm and donate to sperm banks prior to starting HRT, especially since we don't know if permanent infertility is a risk.

This technically makes trans females less masculine but it's not always good to be less masculine even if it makes your claim to be female stronger.

Muscle mass and strength
HRT will make your muscles smaller and weaker, this makes it harder to beat non-trans women in sports which is why no trans female has one an olympic medal yet despite being allowed to participate in all female sports in the olympics.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/29/sports-trans-participation-transgender-women-swimming

Hair and skin
There are anectotal cases of people being able to regrow hair thanks to starting on HRT.

https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1016/j.jaad.2011.10.017

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/i-castrated-myself-to-halt-baldness.119212/

Skin will also be affected (softer skin, etc):

https://www.allure.com/story/estrogen-therapy-trans-skin-hair-changes

Breast growth
This varies a lot between different trans females and it's unclear to what extent you can influence that by optimizing your medication (and what's would then be optimal).

https://vintologi.com/posts/1808

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8664122/

https://www.reddit.com/r/TransBreastTimelines/
 

Creamer

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#14
homologous imprinting would be a valid transformation between genger. old memories and personality, new biological body.
but what they have today is not good enough.

troons redeeming function is that they are effective against feminism. for example troons in foid prisons.
 

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#15
homologous imprinting would be a valid transformation between genger. old memories and personality, new biological body.
Gender generally refers to the social aspect of your sex, you can change your gender without even taking any hormones. Changing your sex requires more effort and it partly irreversible.

The goal should be to live better lives, whether or not you technically change your sex tells very little regarding if medical transition is actually beneficial.
but what they have today is not good enough.
It's good enough to be beneficial for maybe 1% of the population born male. That's still a great first step.

The non-trans non-intersex female form isn't even ideal in the first place. Girldicks are cute.
troons redeeming function is that they are effective against feminism. for example troons in foid prisons.
The issue with that is that it's fairy easy to plug these loopholes, they will only be allowed to remain open if not enough people are abusing them.

They can just change the rules to make it harder for trans females to compete in women's sports if they start doing too well.
 

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#17
21% of women have 'male' cells in their body
This just further illustrates the stupidity of defining sex based on chromosomes.

Male microchimerism was found in 21% of women overall. Healthy women and women with RA did not significantly differ (24% vs 18%). Results ranged from the DNA equivalent of 0 to 20.7 male cells per 100 000 female cells.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-93430500270-6/fulltext
 
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