Elite rule

[Admin]

Ideally 15 to 999 senators shall be given unlimited power.

For 15 individuals we get

For 35 senators we get

For 99 senators we get

for 349 senators we get

for 999 senators we get

x = probability of the senator to make a particular decision.
y = probability of the senate making the same decision.

All senators will carry secure phone with them when they are not working, the secure phones will allow them to quickly make a decision in the case of an emergency such as nuclear war scenario. A senator will work at least 14 hours per day, each senator will have a personal staff (successors and B0 citizens) that helps him with research.

 

[Admin]

About checks and balances to power
The power of an entity can be limited by hard limit or by deterrence.

For a hard limit to work when it comes to government decisions the time it takes for other individuals to intervene cannot be too long, only a few minutes in the case or nuclear war.

deterrences can often be evaded, there are many ways to cheat i elections and in wars you may be able to limit the damage that can be delivered in return if you decide to push the nuclear button.

If someone does a crime it will often be too late once the police show up and many people are willing to break the law to achieve a political goal. Brenton Tarrant killed 51 muslims knowing he would go to jail for it, breivik killed 77 individuals and didn't even expect to survive.

Hard limits to the power of certain leaders only changes the power distribution, it doesn't limit the total power of the government.

Entity A: makes the correct decision 70% of the time.

Entity B: makes the correct decision 60% of the time.

If entity B rules the country but are accountable to Entity A you want entity A to intervene as much as possible, of course it would be even better if Entity A directly rules the country. The opposite true holds true if Entity A governs, in that case it's better if entity B never intervenes.

Unfortunately the ones with the ultimate power will be time-limited and thus they will end up having to rely on other people making good decisions for them. Thus even if the highest court always make the correct decision we might still end up with a lot of bad results due to the highest court not having time to review all decisions made by lower courts.

Separations of power allows for more specialization but it also adds more points of failure, this will only be stable if all branches of government are accountable to the same entity with ultimate power, this specialization can also be achieved by relying on paries outside the official government.

 

[Admin]

The enforcement problem
The true elite will never actually have unlimited power since they will be limited by what actually can be done in the real world, they cannot break the fundamental laws of physics or mathematics.

They will also be forced to take implement sub-optimal policies to please the masses. They will depend on people with military following their orders, if they stop doing that the whole thing may collapse.

Thus with pure single board elite rule the theoretical power distribution will be very different from the actual power distribution.

 

[Admin]

Military elite rule
An elite taking control over a country will be able to enjoy abusing their powers in many ways. If the elite takes power ruthlessly they are also likely to rule ruthlessly. The ruling elite will divide the population into several classes.

A the ruling elite.
B selected citizens.
C citizens/tourists.
D Slaves.
E non-citizens not allowed within the border
F military targets.

A0 citizens(15)
These are the members of the senate and has the higher legislative and judicial power. Each senator chooses a first to forth successor that will takeover once he dies or resigns. The senators are numbered 0 to 14 and if the vote ends with draw the vote of the lowest numbered voting senator will decide.

A1 citizens(85)
State governor, cabinet member or first successor to a senator. The senate must be unanimous in order to remove an A1-citizen from his post. 15 A1 citizens or a single A0-citizen can request an A-vote or delay the replacement of a deputy senator by 100 days.

A2 citizens(115)
Deputy governor, second to forth successor to a senator or deputy to a cabinet member. A margin of 13 votes is required in the senate to remove an A2 citizen from his post.

A3 citizens(210)
Second to forth deputy governor or second to forth deputy to a cabinet member. A margin of 11 votes is required in the senate to remove an A3 citizen from his post.

A4 citizens(575)
Each A4-citizen will select a B-citizen as successor. If the A4-citizen dies/resigns without selecting a successor the senate will choose one, he will be added as A4-citizen if the senate was unanimous or if 7 days has passed without a new candidate getting more votes in the senate.

Any changes to how the country is governed can forced via the A-vote where A-citizens are the only ones allowed to vote and have one vote each. A senator or 15 A1-citizens to request it and that the new suggestion for how to govern wins by a margin of at least {senators opposing the change}² votes.

The possibility to do an A-vote limits the power of the executive branch of the government, it is up to the A-citizens to come up with good limitations for the judiciary. Thus, the small number of senators is controlled by a much larger number of A-citizens.

Only nationals of class A can be chosen as successors to senators, governors, cabinet members. When the senate votes to remove an A-citizenship there will be a delay period or at least (1000,500,350,250,200,150,100,50) days before the change takes effect for a win margin of (8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) in the senate. A unanimous senate is allowed to replace any A-citizens with other individuals and it will take 50 days or longer until the change is implemented.

B citizens(10000)
If the number of B-citizens drops below 9991 a A1 or A0 citizen will be given 120 hours to select 10 new B1-citizens, the A0 and A1 citizens will take turns selecting the new B1 citizens starting with the 15 senators. An A-citizen can choose any B1 citizen as successor(becomes B0 citizen).

The senate can add any number of new B1-citizens with a margin of 5 votes. If the number of B-citizens remains less than (13000,17000,25000) the senate can add new B-citizens with a margin of (2,3,4) votes. The senate requires a margin of at least 6 votes to limit the time and individual is allowed to B-citizen and the minimum time before downgrade will be (500,350,250,175,125,100,75,50,25,0) for win margin of (6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) votes.

C0 full citizenship.
C1 permanent residence.
C2 temporary residence.
D0 free slave, have to pay an additional amount of tax each month to the state.
D1 slave you have to threat well (owned by C0 or higher).
D2 slave not allowed to be killed or very seriously injure.
D3 slave with no rights.
E0 very limited legal protections.
E1 No legal protections.
F0 low value military target.
Fn military target of value {F0 value}*10^(n/10)

The cabinet consists of 20 specialists but is not given any additional power by the constitution besides the powers given to all A1 citizens. It will be similar to the current united states cabinet in terms of individuals and they will be valuable as leaders in their fields.

You need to pass physical and mental tests to get a C0 citizenship, in addition C0 citizen will be allowed to vote in some referendums.

Your citizen-class will determine which weapons you are allowed to possess and carry, non-citizens are not allowed to carry any weapons, C0 will be allowed to keep and bear light arms(no license required) while B will be allowed to keep and bear very heavy weapons. Citizens in control of private jets, tanks, etc will all have A-citizenship.

The issue with pure elite rule is that the elite may not choose new members for the elite in a good way(this is why companies and organizations often fail). The ruling elite will have to come up with a good selection process that will allow prominent citizens to be a part of the ruling elite, objective selection criterias such as score on tests or taxes paid can be used to determine who will become a member of the ruling elite.

 

[Admin]

democracy does not have a good trackrecord
In a democracy people will vote for short term comfort instead of doing what need to be done
• democratic country almost never expand their borders.
• the democratic countries in europe was oblitirated by the might of nazi germany (dictatorship).
• the nazis were mostly defeated by the sovjet union (another dictatorship).
• due to democracy most countries have the Age of Consent at 15 or higher, biology is ignored.
• democracies fail to do what need to be done against christianity, islam and neonazism.
• democracies all around the world got raped by china "forced technology transfers".
• US failed to win the vietnam war.
• all western democracies have shit fertility rates.
• we will face catastrophic global warming soon due to not doing what need to be done.
• US had to rely on russian soyuz to get to ISS.
• US failed to act against the sovjet union in time allowing them to build a very powerful nuclear arsenal.
• Still almost no implementation of human genetic engineering.

 

[Admin]

Still even with these failures democracies have still performed a lot better than what simple theory would predict and this can be explained by media playing a big role in shaping public opinion.

This may work for a while but it's not a stable system, for better or worse it will eventually come to an end.

 

[Admin]

Women should be D1 slaves

A single government would not be able to properly decide who should be able to control millions of women, it would require too much in terms of brainpower. Fathers would not be able to do a proper job selecting either.

But if we only reduce some females to D1 or lower we can look at what males tgat managed to reproduce via free females and distribute the D1 to D3 females to them. Thus you would get both female sexual selection and selection via government power.

 

[Demonstrator]

do u think ppl read all this ?

 

[Admin]

do u think ppl read all this ?

some do that.

I begin writing a shorter version earlier

https://www.vintologi.com/threads/simple-introduction-to-vintologi.10/

 

[Admin]

Why do dictatorships have a bad track record?
Sure we have some older kings we may look up to but most dictatorships today are countries we do not actually want to live in, why is that?

First we need to realize that all current democracies function like elite rule between periodic election, you simply rely on the individuals you voting for having a new somewhat fair election (fair enough for you to vote them out).

Thus they issue is the selection mechanism, the most ruthless taking power and using the power they optained to opress everyone else, this is fun for the few that made it in the elite that get power but maybe not so fun for everyone else.

Whether or not you yourself is a member of the elite that gets to vote is actually less important, what matters are the actual decisions, it can end badly for you even if you start out as a member of the elite and you may benefit from it even if you start out powerless.

Many countries had very functional undemocratic systems of governance in the past, initially only 6% where allowed to vote in the US.

 

[Admin]

Which areas should the ruling elite focus on
The ruling elite needs to focus their brainpower on the most important areas, less important aspects can be left to the private sector to resolve.

Education and media
We need to make sure the public get correct information about important topics and that harmful views to not spread, thus we do need the government controlling mainstream media. We also need to educate the young and make sure they are raised into believing our correct beliefs, we may want to ban or severely restrict homeschooling.

Legislation
Laws and constitutional rights themselves do not matter too much, you can have one official set of laws and another that is actually enforced in practice. Thus we can have a democratically elected parliament voting for laws and we can later look at them "judicial review" and discard the problematic ones or just judge as if no such law were approved by parliament.

The judicial power
It will look even worse if courts rule one way and it's ignored by the ones in control of the executive bransh (if separate). An executive branch directly controlled by the government may not actually be needed, in medieval iceland laws where enforced in a decentralized manner and no central control over an executive branch was needed.

Healthcare
No need for government involvement, millions of people dying due to privatizations may be a good thing long term. The government shouldn't waste money keeping useless sick people alive, especially when it comes to old sick people.

Research
We do need to focus more on researching genetic engineering of humans and similar areas. Find ways to conolize at least one other planet besides earth.

The military
We do need a strong military so we will be able to take over the world, when we win we will try the losers for war crimes while completely ignoring all the conventions we had to break to win the war in an efficient manner.

 

[rardcip]

I wanna be a dictator sending people to concentration camps.

I wish i had more power, it's really lame not being able to punish people i dont like.

 

[Admin]

Why democracy isn't a good idea
There is no shortage of issues trying to make democrazy work
1. the people who got election can always rig the next election.
2. voting correctly is too expensive in terms of research.
3. arrows impossibility theorem
4. voters lack the mental abilities required to make good decisions.
5. it will depend on having a good media infrastructure feeding information to people.

One compromise solution for 3 is https://star.vote/

The issue with 5 is that it allows for other nations to manipulate elections, russia did that in the US to get Trump elected over Hillary Clinton.

All democracies are technically governed according to elite rule between elections (an elite having all the power) and there isn't any legal way for the population to replace the rulers before the next election, when it's finally time for the next election it may already be too late. Current democracies are maintained by an irrational religious faith in democracy among the one that got voted into office but that is not stable, it's easy for paranoia to spread where people are afraid that the other party they dont like are going to grab power and end democracy.

 

[Admin]

democracy does not give you "consent of the governed" you only need to win the election and this does not even require majority support.

If you dont like the government often there isn't much you can do since you are only one of maybe 10 million citizens, your individual vote is highly unlikely to change the outcome of the election.

What matters is that the rulers make good decisions governing the country.

No current country have voting right tied to paying tax so we do not know how it would work actually work but from what i know it worked just fine in the past. The reason why all these systems changed into democracies is because people (including the elite) wanted democracy but it's not clear that it was a good thing in terms of improving the governance of countries.

The switch to democracy was actually a disaster in sweden, our country got ruined by socialist policies and it also ruined our culture and we still have not recovered from that.

When you are giving the right to vote just by surviving to 18 it doesn't really feel like something of value, i didn't really earn it.

 

[Leucosticte]

democracy does not give you "consent of the governed" you only need to win the election and this does not even require majority support.

What about in Israel, where the ruling coalition needs the support of 50% + 1 of the voters?

 

[adolf512]

What about in Israel, where the ruling coalition needs the support of 50% + 1 of the voters?

No ruling coalition only need a majority of the seats in parliament and this does not technically require a majority of voters even in israel.

 

[Admin]

How we can end the US democracy
Actually this is already going on with republican purging voter rolls (over 20 million voters so far). The republicans also need to work on the voter machines to make sure they win the 2020 election by landslide.

Constitutional convention
This requires the approval of 38 of 50 (of the state delegates), there are no formal restrictions here but there are still limitations in the sense that you need to make sure this actually get implemented or else it's just some text on a paper.

But if you cannot get to 38 you still need 13 to prevent a convention against you.

Impeachment majority
You need at least 67 senators and 218 members of the house of reprasentatives, this will allow you to impeach any public offical including the president and thus you can gain full control of all 3 branches of government.

Court packing majority
You need majority in the house and senate in addition to the presidency. This will allow you to pass a law packing the supreme court with your lackies and you can also pack lower courts or just rule over them by making the supreme court far more active.

Anti impeachment majority
You need to have the presidency and 34 senators, the president will abuse his powers and the senators will refuse to impeach him despite the fact that he ignored the supreme court and also do not faithfully execute the laws This is the most dirty option but it may work.

 

[Admin]

People view dysfunctional governments are the norm
A consequence of democracy is that we have normalized a condition where we elect politicians to make very bad decisions and their fialure to actually advance humanity and solve global environmental issues such as anthropocentric global warming.

People were hoping Donald Trump would resolve things but as expected he turned out to be a rather weak and incompetent leader mostly focused on getting re-elected, he is a coward unwilling to pull the trigger when it's justified.

Imagine if we actually had a competent government

1. having a functional educational system
2. being able to fuck 13 year old girls breaking the law.
3. expanding our borders
4. colonizing other planets
5. high quality media funded by the government.
6. getting proper help when you have mental issues instead of quack psychiatrists.
7. taxes would be far lower (maybe 25% in total).
8. having a functional judicial system where you dont need to wait years for the final verdict.
9. birthrate above the replacement level.

 

[Admin]

About mob rule and vigilante 'justice'
In addition to having to worry about mob rule via the government you may also have issues with people taking the law in their own hands, this is why most people shouldn't be allowed to own weapons. When people commit political violence it tend to be for very irrational reasons since more intelligent individuals refrain from doing these things, we do not want the worst to gain political power due to them being willing to commit acts of terrorism.

If people are allowed to vote their are strategies that can be deployed to limit the damage done

1. restricting who is allowed to vote.
2. having an undemocratic media structure
3. long terms (such as 30 ears or life-long)
4. not allowing people to run for re-election.
5. allow rich people to buy politicians.

One strategy if to have elections but construct the system in a way such that the real power is in a body or bodies that are not democratically elected.

 

[Admin]

Over-reliance on capitalism
Instead of trying to get a more competent government in place libertarians just want to reduce the scope of the government or even eliminate it completely, there is however empirical evidence supporting the notion that a stateless or nearly stateless modern society would be functional,

The fact that the free market may be able to provide a solution does not mean the free market solution would be better, so far government issues money have proven to be superior to cryptocurrencies (less fees, better capabilities).

We currently have a very dysfunctional system for patents and copy right since we have tried to have capitalism provide what should be viewed as a public good "intellectual property" we pay for that every day in the form of intellectual stagnation.