Science regarding transexualism

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#36
Medical transition & biological sex
There are many ways to arbitrarily divide humans into 2 sexes but what actually make sense is to look at the body itself.
https://vintologi.com/threads/about-the-gender-binary.846/

Reproductive sex
Humans can produce sperm nand eggs to reproduce. As far as i know there is no case of a human being able to produce both or transition from producing one type of gamete into producing the other.

This is relevant when it comes to partner selection since both sperm and egg are required for successful fertilization.
Unfortunately HRT will over time prevent your body from producing sperm without you getting the ability to produce eggs in return, this does change your reproductive sex from male to infertile unless you find away around in such as by banking sperm.

One of the advantages with cis + trans female relationships is the ability for them to have biological children together, two cis lesbians currently do not have that option.

Breastfeeding
HRT will give you fully functional female breasts

https://www.reddit.com/r/transmaxxing/comments/j4gf1h/breastfeeding/

Appearance
HRT alone can give you a body that looks like that of a female except for genitals (you would still need surgery for that) if it's started early enough and you have genetics for it, in other cases a female appearance is obtained after surgery.
With a female appearance you will function in society socially mostly like a female, early social transition result in early female socialization which will make it easier to fit in with cis females.

The brain
Trans females have brains somewhere between the male and female (average) prior to HRT and after male puberty.
Trans females in general (prior to HRT) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25720349
Trans female attracted to females (prior to HRT) https://sci-hub.se/http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhr032

The study (picture and link above) is a bit strange since they have an abstract that doesn't fit with their actual results. The sample size is also smaller than ideal making the results a bit unreliable.

HRT will of course have a powerful feminizing effect on the brain changing it towards female proportions https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_and_estrogen_on_adult_human_brain_structure unfortunatily that study used "Cyproterone Acarate" at 10 times the appropiate dosage which may have skewed the results.

Sexuality
HRT will affect your penis so it will no longer be the same as a male penis

https://www.reddit.com/r/transmaxxing/comments/e438lk/how_a_girldick_differ_from_a_male_penis/

I will try to find some good studies regarding this but based on what trans females have written about this it does seem like a change in sexual function (multiple full body orgasms, less visually focused, etc) is to be expected from HRT. Some people have also resorted a change of sexuality resulting in them becoming more interested in sex with men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLiLBLD1Ynk

Cis females like trans females often enjoy things like revealing clothing, this is not to attract male attention, it's for themselves.

https://digitalscholarship.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3350&context=thesesdissertations

https://vintologi.com/threads/surveys-by-me.899/#post-5108

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebr...ashian-discusses-autosexuality-being-23225442

This can unfortunately get out of control in individuals who are not yet on HRT due to the resulting powerful sex-drive. You will still likely enjoy having a beautiful female body on HRT but it will be more like comfort and less of a sexual thing.
 

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#37
Yes some people are incel prior to transitioning
But i have not seen any stats showing that incels (for any definition of the "incel") are more likely to transition. Sexually unsuccessful males being less likely to transition make sense since they have more to lose, if you have a wife and want (more) children you will be very likely to delay transition even if you suffer from severe body dysphoria.

I have for fun encouraged some cis incels to transition but almost universally they are very much against that, most people in incel spaces are transphobes it seems.

Makes we wounder if people with problematic views will be more likely to drop them if they start on estrogen, people associate estrogen with being a nice/submissive individual but i am not sure if that's really true. I have been pushing for a Randomized Controlled Trial on this so we can find out.
 

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#38
Are men treated better than women? A trans man's point of view.
The following story was written by an FtM individual thinking transitioning to male was a good idea:

I've always thought that sexism, be is misogyny or misandry, can best be understood through experience. I am transsexual which means that I have experienced both being perceived as a woman and a man by society. So here's my experience and the reason I'm an MRA.

Background
I'm ftm transsexual. I spent the first 18 years of my life as a girl/woman and these last 2 as a man.

The good aspect of being a woman
Most people treated me very well. Those who didn't mistreated me because I'm autistic, not because I was a girl. I was never made to feel bad whenever I asked for help, people were happy to help me. Guys were happy to help with emotional issues particularly. Whenever I was having a bad day, they were happy to talk with me and keep me company. Overall, my mental health and well-being was taken more seriously. Additionally, it was easier to make friends. From what I can tell, others just felt more comfortable around me and felt safer sharing their problems with me.

The bad aspects of being a woman
I honestly can't think of anything. I've never experienced misogyny. I wasn't exactly attractive so I never got any sexual/romantic attention from guys be that positive or negative. The only thing I can think of was that a few girls at school were mean to me but again that's because of my mental disability, not because I was a girl. That and they were just shitty friends in general. I think this too would have been worse if I was attractive as I would have been seen as competition.

My bad experiences as a man
Socially, nothing really improved. I hear some people say that men are taken more seriously with certain things, especially when it comes to the workplace, but at my work men and women are treated the same. I feel more confident now, but that's because my gender dysphoria has lessoned considerably.

I don't feel comfortable asking for help anymore, especially when it comes to mental health. Whenever I do people are less enthusiastic about helping me. I've also seen a decrease in the quality of help I receive. I also find that it's harder to talk to people. It's like they just aren't as comfortable around me and don't trust me as much. It's hard to make friends compared to a few years ago. People overall treat me neutrally and sometimes slightly negatively. I've noticed strangers are more wary around me. Nothing like pulling their kids away or clutching their purses harder, but they tend to stay at a farther distance and don't make eye contact with me as often (not that I mind, but it is something I've noticed).

Final thoughts
It was a jarring experience. I went from being treated like how a person should be treated (trusted, listened to, etc.) to being treated, well, like a man. In my experience I have been treated far worse as a man. I by no means regret transitioning in any way, but I really wish someone would have prepared me for this.

Keep in mind, these experiences are my own. For others it can be much different. Additionally, I've only been a man for two years now so maybe that "male privilege" I keep hearing about will kick in sometime soon (that's a joke of course). That or I'll experience more and worse misandry, especially as I get further along in my transition and become even more masculine.
 

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#39
Typical detrans story
I have looked at too many detrans stories and i do see a rather disturbing pattern.

She is born female.

She suffered from severe dysphoria.

She started transitioning to alleviate the dysphoria, it worked.

Then she regrets it and feels like this was the wrong way to deal with the dysphoria.

Of course this is just my impression but here is some actual studies on it
https://vintologi.com/posts/4444

That tells us that social factors are most prominent in causing people to have regrets.

A lot of social problems men have are swept under the rug since it goes against feminist dogma (feminists claim that females have it worse & we should have equality). People transitioning from female to male often find out being male isn't what they thought it would be and then it can be too late to really go back.

Male privilege does exist but it's reserved for elite males(people like Donald Trump). Being a typical male really isn't that great, being a male at the bottom of society is really bad.

This is less of a problem among MtF individuals since issues females have are talked about more openly and thus people that transition from male to female know what to expect.

I would like to make clear while i do think females are being treated overall better in western societies it's still not that great, i do not think we should have equality as a goal.

What we are not seeing
I am not really seeing stories like "i transitioned to get a transbian girlfriend, i regret it" or "i detransitioned due to reverse body dysphoria".
I have also not heard many FtM individuals say they transitioned because they felt like males were treated better by society. Most probably know transitioning will come with difficulties and do it anyway due to dysphoria, some still regret it obviously.
 

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#40
Refuting: "cis females cannot be AGP since they are more androphilic"
The worst issue is assuming cis females being more androphilic than trans females would imply that cis females are never autogynephilic, that is obviously false and illustrates the mental gymnastic the cult-followers of R. B. engage in.

What it would mean is that trans females as a group do not have exactly the same sexuality as cis females which really wouldn't be surprising, this however has not yet been properly shown as far as i know.

It would not refute the notion "trans females have female brains" since you could still explain the difference in sexuality by trans females having brains similar to that of lesbian cis females more often than straight cis females.

But the notion of trans females as a group having female brains prior to HRT has already been refuted https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25720349

HRT will however have a significant feminizing effect on the brain researchgate.net/publication/46671034_Changing_your_sex_changes_your_brain_Influences_of_testosterone_and_estrogen_on_adult_human_brain_structure

The study above did however involve the usage of Cyproterone Acarate at at least 10 times the ideal dosage.
 

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#41
Dating as androphilic FtM
You will not be a total incel but your dating options will still not be great, not even close.

u/HomersDonutMan wrote:

Trans people overestimate the willingness of cis people to date/be intimate with trans people.
I will say that this is almost exclusively talking about FtMs because I have no idea how everything works with trans women and that's not my territory. However, I see a lot of FTMs say that there are many cis people that will date and be intimate with trans people when that's simply not true. There are a shit ton of fetishists that don't see us as male and just want to get off or feed into their own sexual/romantic fantasies and that's different than a healthy relationship.

At least from the homosexual point of view, most gay cis men aren't into trans men even post op from what I've seen. The ones that do are bottoms that mysteriously will top trans men (even after being told by the trans guy that they are not a bottom) or creepy dudes that have basically been blocked by most of the local community.

Maybe it's just me, but I've found trans people who have been around longer and been transitioning longer attest to this too.
Edit: Most of the people insulting me have said previously they would never date another trans person which further proves my point, but ok.
 

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#42
Intersex study: gender identity is 40% environmental
The intersex children with Cloacal exstrophy identified as female 40% of the time when they were raised as female. They developed a male gender identity 100% of the time where they were raised as male

1651096625432.png


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1421518/

All but two whose parents disclosed their birth status chose a male name within a day of parental announcement; one of these two was only 2 years old (and was reassigned male by the parents),
 

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#43
Article: 5 of 5 people born with micropenis identified as female when raised as such
This is an interesting forced transition experiment and it did not go bad for the reason many people would assume. The issue was that they were subjected to very questionable genital surgeries causing 4 of 5 to be dissatisfied with their neo-vagina.

https://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20020125/baby-boys-with-micropenis-happier-as-males

This does still refute the notion of gender identity being innate.

Due to the genitalia not looking like a normal male baby, infants born with micropenis are sometimes raised as females. This involves reconstructive surgery to form a vagina and hormone treatments.

Although all of the 13 men and 5 women born with micropenis who participated in the study identified closely with their gender, only 20% of the babies raised as females were satisfied with their genitalia, compared to 50% of the males.

"Patients reared male considered themselves to be masculine, and those raised female considered themselves to be feminine," said study author Amy Wisniewski, PhD, of the Johns Hopkins Children's Center, in a news release. "Our recommendation that babies be raised male is based not on problems with gender identity but on the difficulties associated with the surgical construction of a vagina and subsequent hormone treatment."

The actual study
Someone was nice enough to link me this and it turns out that the individuals with micropenis had partial androgen insensitivity (intersex condition)

web.archive.org/web/20060909211109id_/http://facstaff.l3.drake.edu/abwisniewski/papers/13.pdf

While 4 of 5 had doubt regarding their gender they were all satisfied with their female role:

1649170349897.png


The ones raised as male largely viewed themselves as masculine while the ones raised as female largely viewed themselves as feminine:

1649160806530.png


Alternative: raising them as girls while not subjecting them to surgery
This is an obvious alternative that hasn't been tried. Instead of trying to force people into some sex-binary we need to look at what medical interventions people actually benefit from.

We shouldn't subject children to surgeries that are not medically necessary.

It's very difficult to construct a decent neo-vagina even in the case of adults who started HRT after puberty (it's very hard to find any good results) and of course the situation is much worse for children, this simply shouldn't be done. There is also some ethnical issues with regard to the lack of consent.
 

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#44
Intersex study: 7 of 9 who was raised as female identified as such
All patients raised as male had a normal male gender identity, displayed masculine gender role behaviour in childhood, and had a heterosexual sexual orientation. Seven of the 10 male patients had experienced heterosexual intercourse. Two out of nine women did not identify with the female gender. The majority had masculine gender role interests in childhood. The female patients were significantly less likely to have experienced sexual activity with a partner than the male patients.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1083318807001660
 

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#45
5 of 16 children with Cloacal Exstrophy identified as female when raised as such
For 3 it was unclear what gender identity they had (1 refused to discuss) and 8 identified as male.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa022236

They were all fairly masculine in terms of their behaviour

1649351125765.png


It is worth noting that the study did not regard Cloacal Exstrophy as an intersex condition. You can expect a similar result if you transition random males early.
 

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#46
Gender Identity Outcome in Female-Raised 46,XY Persons with Penile Agenesis, Cloacal Exstrophy of the Bladder, or Penile Ablation

https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1007/s10508-005-4342-9

Raised as female (penile Agenesis):
Penile_Agenesis.png


Raised as male (Penile Agenesis):

Penile_Agenesis_M.png


Raised as female (Cloacal or Bladder Extrophy):
Cloacal_Bladder_Extrophy.png


Raised as male (Cloacal or Bladder Extrophy):

Cloacal_Bladder_Extrophy_M.png


Raised as female (after traumatic loss of penis):

Lost_penis.png
 

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#47
Unwillingness to reproduce
Something i did notice anecdotally was that most trans people did not desire to have biological children. I did recommend to people that they bank sperm prior to transitioning in the transmaxxing manifesto but most just ignored that advice.

Currently only around 5% preserve fertility (4 AMAB, 1 AFAB).
In our sample of 105 transgender adolescents, a total of 13 (seven transgender men and six transgender women) between the age of 14.2 and 20.6 years were seen in formal consultation for FP before initiating hormones. Of these adolescents, four completed sperm cryopreservation and one completed oocyte cryopreservation.
https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(17)30065-4/fulltext

During this period, 28 birth-assigned males were started on estrogen and 77 birth-assigned
females were started on testosterone for medical transition.
https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1016/j.jadohealth.2017.01.022

So 1/7 MtF and 1/77 FtM pursued fertility preservation prior to transitioning.

The rate was much higher in the following study:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2764075

Among 49 individuals who were AFAB, none attempted FP, with 16 stating no reason; among the other 33, the main reason was a plan to reassess fertility options when older (Figure). Conversely, 33 of 53 individuals who were AMAB (62%) pursued FP (Table), of whom 22 successfully froze sperm after providing a masturbatory sample (mean [SD] age, 15.6 [1.4] years). The remaining 11 underwent testicular biopsy (which is well suited to those in early puberty), and this group was significantly younger (mean [SD] age, 13.9 [1.5] years; P = .003). Five of these 11 individuals were found to have mature sperm, while the other 6 had germ cells only, all of which were cryopreserved.

To understand why some patients chose not to pursue fertility preservation, we examined reasons recorded in the medical record. Of the 49 young people assigned female at birth (AFAB) who declined FP, 16 gave no reason. The remaining 33 gave a variety of responses, the proportions of which are displayed. Of the 19 young people assigned male at birth (AMAB) who declined FP, 9 gave no reason.
fertility-preservation.png
 

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#48
Is low dose E to blame for disappointing results in some studies?
In this analysis MtF HRT was found to reduce distress but results are not as great as i expected so we need to figure out what went wrong here. Feel free to look at this publication and see if you find any issues with it.

1655549843845.png


https://figshare.com/articles/journ...ental_health_outcomes_for_either_sex/19018868

One issue with prescribed MtF HRT is that typically it will be aggressive testosterone suppression combined with low estradiol dosage resulting in the body not getting the sex hormones it needs.

I suggest doing an RCT comparing estradiol monotherapy with low dose E + anti-androgen to see if the mental health outcomes is be better when no anti-androgen is used.

There is some weak evidence in favor of low starting dosage when it comes to estradiol (might be better for breast growth, etc) but if you are going to go that route you might be better off not suppressing testosterone accepting T level above the normal female range.

https://vintologi.com/threads/male-to-female.5/page-2#post-1808

Another potential reason is that estrogen will make you more emotional which is a problem if your are subjected to a lot of negative stuff in life.

Issues with the study
Unfortunatily this is just an observational trials, it does attempt to control for confounding factors but even if the study author does their best doing so it will still be inferior to a decent randomized controlled trial.

The study does for example adjuist for "relationship status" and "harrassment at school" but these are things that may be affected by HRT itself (such as allowing trans females to pass so they don't get harassed) then if you 'adjust' for that you are removing a benefit from HRT. Similarly if FtM transition causes people to become incel adjusting for relationship status will remove that affect making it appear better than it really is.

One issue with "suicide attempt requiring hospitalization" data is that the word "hospitalization" is often used as euphomism for forced psychiatric treatments (not real healthcare) and this will depend on arbitrary judgement by psychiatrists.

People who pursue HRT will typically have more contact with therapists increasing the risk for psychiatric abuse.

If more dysphoric AMAB people are more likely to get HRT prescribed that will make the group on HRT look worse for that reason (this wasn't controlled for AFAIK). This is of course not something we should merely assume without actually doing the study, we should not give medical treatments the benefit of the doubt.
 

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#49
Formal study on tavistock data
The study confirm that suicidal trans people are more likely to get access to medical treatments.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-022-02287-7

To calculate the annual suicide rate, the total number of years spent by patients under the clinic’s care is estimated at about 30,000. This yields an annual suicide rate of 13 per 100,000 (95% confidence interval: 4–34). Compared to the United Kingdom population of similar age and sexual composition, the suicide rate for patients at the GIDS was 5.5 times higher.
This is for people seeking care in general and hasn't been adjusted for any confounding factors (such as mental illness diagnosis prior to seeking care).

Respondents who report suicide attempts are not necessarily indicating an intent to die. One survey of the American population found that almost half the respondents who reported attempting suicide subsequently stated that their action was a cry for help and not intended to be fatal (Nock & Kessler, 2006). In two small samples of non-heterosexual youth, half the respondents who initially reported attempting suicide subsequently clarified that they went no further than imagining or planning it; for the remainder who did actually attempt suicide, their actions were usually not life-threatening.
So reports of suicide attempts should be interpreted largely as cries for help rather than people actually wanting to die.

The suicide rate of the GIDS patients is not necessarily indicative of the rate among all adolescents who identify as transgender. On the one hand, individuals with more serious problems (and their families) would be particularly motivated to seek referral and more likely to obtain it, and so the clinical subset would be more prone to suicide. One study suggests that a child who frequently attempted suicide was more readily referred to the GIDS (Carlile et al., 2021). On the other hand, young people facing hostility from their families would be less able to seek referral, and this hostility could make them especially vulnerable to suicide.
Generally when it comes to seeking care like that it will of course be weighted towards people who are the most unwell.

The study linked did talk about the numerous issues trans children are facing

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/26895269.2020.1870188?journalCode=wijt21
 
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